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Out of Body Experiences. To have them or not?

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(@Anonym)
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I noticed there is similar topic being discussed in the Scandinavian part of this forum. Language barrier prevents me from joining in. Im very interested in this subject and happy to find someone to talk about it.

It appears that Martinus considered OBE to be harmful to his intelligence decided not to do it despite having the ability to leave body at will.

The following is quote form Martinus Memoirs

Quote:
...since having gone through my initiation, I realise that I can leave my body without difficulty. The first time I tried it I suddenly saw a strange city in radiant sunshine. There were desert-like landscapes around the city. I later realised that it was Damascus I had been in. Another time I went in this way to Jerusalem. A blue cloud always formed itself first. Out of this cloud a landscape appeared. I could see that it was the field near Jerusalem that was called "The Bloody Field" because Judas bought it with the thirty pieces of silver he got for betraying Jesus. 
On a later occasion I saved a man from being killed. The usual cloud formed and out of it there appeared a South Sea island. I saw a man sitting by a lake. He was almost black. There were also some Negro cabins. Now another man appeared from a cabin. He was armed with a club and he crept up on the sitting man. He looked very evil, and it was obvious that the man by the lake was about to be murdered. 
Suddenly the evil-looking man saw me. He was horrified, threw the club away and fled. Even though I could save people's lives in this way I realised that I had not got my cosmic consciousness in order to carry out that kind of experiment. It was not my mission: I had to concentrate on writing my cosmic analyses and on drawing symbols. Also it can be very dangerous to leave one's body in this way. I could see that I would destroy my intelligence if I continued with these experiments. And as I was destined to use my intelligence at a very high level, I did not dare to do such things any more. 
If one looks at spiritualistic mediums one finds their feelings are very developed at the expense of their intelligence. They have no independent opinions but always have to ask the spirits, and they do not even know if they are real spirits that they are dealing with. 
As I've said before, I had a piano in my room. I had never learned to play from music but I enjoyed playing short, easy pieces by ear. One day I contacted a music teacher, because now I wanted to play the piano from music. After my first lesson I sat the whole evening practising reading music. But the next day, when I sat down at the typewriter, I discovered that it was impossible for me to write a single line and I realised that I would have to give up my piano-playing if I wanted to go on writing.

Martinus indirectly compares OBE activity with studding and practicing of music. He decides not to pursue either with regards to his mission as a writer of The Third Testament.

I have read many books about OBE mainly from modern day authors like Robert Monroe, Robert Bruce, William Buhlman or Bruce Moen. They dont appear to be loosing intelligence by practicing OBE. Also no serious musician that I know of lost their intelligence because of practicing music. That makes me wonder how to interpret Matinus decision of OBE. Should this be taken as general advice for everyone?

I have not found other places in Martinus about dangers or benefits of OBE. Does anyone know other writings or lectures where this problem is discussed?

 
Lagt op : 19/09/2010 19:39
(@Oscar)
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Hi Gadfly

From the Martinus book: "If one looks at spiritualistic mediums one finds their feelings are very developed at the expense of their intelligence."
The terms "feelings" and "intelligence" are special Martinus terms with a specific meaning: they represend the basic energies.

All human beings are in development towards real humanity. At the point of real humanity, the basic energies for feeling and intelligence will be developed, and equal in strength to each other.

When Martinus sais: "feelings are very developed at the expense of their intelligence.", he doesn't mean that the person is less intelligent; he means that the intelligence energy is inferior to the feeling energy.

Here I put in a translation from my answer to Andreas on the danish part of the forum.

OBE is an exciting area. And it is very popular at the moment. But Martinus warns against this. With good reason.

At a stage where we become an expert and experienced in spiritual things, it becomes natural with out of body experiences. Like you quoted from the Martinus book.

The problem is not getting out of the body. There are many methods that are tought to do this. But are they equally proficient in learning ways to come back? And what to do if something goes wrong? There is not much about this in spiritual books. But I haven't read books from the authors you mentioned, so I might be wrong.

What happens in an out of the body experience, is that the spiritual body and the physical body separates. Normally, the spirit body and the physical body overlap each other. The spiritual body is somewhat larger than the physical one, and is not bordered by the skin. It sticks out a little. We call it the aura. When the spiritual body leaves the physical body, they will remain to have a connection. But the physical body is unmanned and exposed to danger in this instant. The spiritual body can then wander around freely. The same is happening at a more natural way during dreams when we remember to have seen places or we have been together with other people in the dream.

A danger with an out of body experience is that the physical body can be possesed by a foreign spirit. So the psysical body should be protected during the time of absence of the spiritual body.

Another danger is that spiritual body does not get properly back into the body. The spiritual body is skewed / asymmetric inside the physical body! Well. How should we repair this? I do not know and I would recommend not to try an OBE before you know techniques to repair this.

A third danger is that the spiritual body after several OBE's could be sitting "loosely" in the physical body.

It's just nogre examples of hazards. It's probably more.

There are several main problems with out av body experiences. 1) is often done without supervision / monitoring of experienced, trained, talented, spiritual people. 2) They are probably done by newbies who don't know how to handle problem situations. And thirdly, what is the point with the OBE in the first place?

For many people the point is that they want to have a spiritual experience. They want to dive into spiritual truths. They will, as I see it, take a shortcut. Instead of taking the long, normal path of development through various earthly lifes, they take a short cut to reach spirituality. Before they are ripe. For the same reason that you do not learn 12-year-olds to drive a car, or teach a two-month old baby to walk, or give a carpenter apprentice the responsibility to build a house; for the same reason, a spiritual child should not be experimenting with spiritual processes. It can turn out good, and it could go wrong.

Best rehards
Oscar

 
Lagt op : 19/09/2010 22:52
(@Anonym)
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Hi Oscar,

Thanks for your explanations. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions.

I read most of the main books (Livets Bog, EWP) and I am familar with the concepts of "feelings" and "intelligence" in Martinus. My point is that OBE might be no more dangerous than practicing music. It might develop ones mental faculties towards "feelings"  at the expense of development of "intelligence" but it wont make you go mentally ill or loose intelligence altogether.

As for the example with medium I agree with you and Martinus on this. But the way I understand OBE is different. The goal is not to become a medium or a channel for spiritual entities to communicate with the physical plane. It is to keep ones mind conscious and capable of remembering during the time physical body is a sleep. The techniques I read about, all focus on mind awake body asleep goal.

And as for the dangers of OBE, I think you are right there might be many. Im trying to research this as much as I can. Im hopping I to find more from Martinus. What puzzles me is the difference between unconscious out of body travel that happens naturally during a sleep and conscious out of body experience. How come one could be more dangerous than the other?

Equally puzzling is this paragraf from a foreword to Martinus "Mankind and the World Picture " by Paul Brunton.

Quote:
Martinus declares that he is acting as an invisible helper at night, when out of the body during its sleep, on the Korean battlefield, helping newly-slain soldiers pass through their ordeal peacefully and understandingly, instead of being bewildered, or self-deceived into the belief that they are still physically alive.

This is exactly what The Monroe Institute practices in one of its OBE exploration programs. It was founded by Robert Monroe (one of the authors I mentioned earlier) who developed easy to use techniques for OBE. People who participate in his Lifeline program have a chance to get out of body and help people who died in trauma to make connections with the spiritual world. A help from physically alive people is needed since it is somehow difficult for spiritual beings to contact the newly deceased who are still strongly connected to the physical plane.

More about this here
http://www.monroeinstitute.org/lifeline/about/

The main question for me is how natural is OBE and what is the difference between out of body state while asleep. What do you think? Is there more on this in Martinus writings or lectures?

Best

Gadfly

 
Lagt op : 20/09/2010 11:24
(@Oscar)
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Hi Gadfly

This is an interesting subject. Thank you for expanding on your thoughts about this.

Gadfly wrote:
It might develop ones mental faculties towards "feelings"  at the expense of development of "intelligence" but it wont make you go mentally ill or loose intelligence altogether.

I agree. Unless some major mistake is made and the spiritual body doesn't return safely to the psysical body, the intelligence is not jeopardized.

Gadfly wrote:
The main question for me is how natural is OBE and what is the difference between out of body state while asleep.

I don't know exactly. This will require some investigation and interpretations of how Martinus describes the subjects involved. The function of sleep is one of these subjects. In both states (sleep and OBE), there is a connection body (danish: koblingslegeme) that connects the spiritual body to the psysical. Clairvoyants can sometimes see this as a silver cord. The function of this connection body should be looked into.

An other clue would be that while at sleep, ths intinct body is running the psysical body, as an automatic function. It will make sure that the spiritual body returns when something happens (when the body all of a sudden is wakened up, for instance). Is the instinct body doing the same jobb during OBE, and is this run as an automatic function or is the day-consciousness involved? This would be a relevant question to explore.

So the differences could be in functions of the instinct body, automatic function and connection body.

I believe strongly in the purpose you describe for performing the OBE. Lost souls is a problem both for themselves and for people who can get disturbed by them. So I support the cause. As long as it is done professionally and maybe supervised, where risks are avoided.

This said, I also think that there are ways to help lost souls using techniques performed at full conciousness. I work with this myself with amazing results.

Best regards
Oscar

 
Lagt op : 20/09/2010 12:11
 cai
(@cai)
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Hi Gadfly and welcome to MF.

Quote:
My point is that OBE might be no more dangerous than practicing music. It might develop ones mental faculties towards "feelings"  at the expense of development of "intelligence" but it wont make you go mentally ill or loose intelligence altogether.

I see a difference in OBE and practicising music.
OBE is a pure spirituel event ,but practising music is a materiel event (playing the tangent of the piano).
I think that Martinus meant that his time on earth should be used mostly to his masterwork-The Third testament.He liked music a lot,but felt that he has to concentrate his time on work instead of being a good pianomaster. ;D

Martinus was a visitor on this earth coming from what he called the "real human kingdom".It took a lot of work and energy from the spiritworld,to let him incarnate in the "monkey-body",known as Martinus Thomsen.Like Jesus he could have said that "my kingdom is not off this world"...

We eartlings is not developed enough in intuition to do like he did-traveling in the world and spheres without his material body.. ;)
Therfore I think it`s some kind of dangerous for us to do this experiments.

I´ve found and article in MI´s homepage about traveling in sleep and death.You could maybe use Google Toolbar translatingprogram to read this article(writen in danish)..

http://www.martinus.dk/da/litteraturen/martinus-artikler/gennem-ddens-port/

friendly greatings
Cai

 
Lagt op : 20/09/2010 14:57
(@Anonym)
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@ Oscar
Thanks again Oscar. I will do more research in to the areas you pointed out.

Also your technique sound very interesting. Where did you learn it from?

@ cai
A fair point about music and OBE, they are not quite the same ;D What I meant is the effect of"feelings" vs."intelligence" development could be similar or at least no more dangerous.

I understand Martinus "kingdom was not of this world" and his mission was his writing. But Im not sure about OBE being no good for the rest of us . Many people have them and it seams easy to learn. What Im trying to find out is the potential benefits and dangers involved.

Thanks for the article. It might be what Im looking for. I found it in English here.

http://www.martinus.dk/en/martinus-writings/articles/through-gates-of-death/

Thanks for your help.

Gadfly

 
Lagt op : 20/09/2010 15:36
(@Anonym)
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I just finished reading the article "Through the gates of death — sleep and death" Cai pointed me to.  It did not answered all my questions about OBE but it was useful still. In the article Martinus expalains what happens to people who die in childhood, in early youth, in the prime of life, or by natural death, ripe in years in the physical world.

What Martinus writes matches exactly the other authors I read on OBE. It reminded me books from Bruce Moen who tells many stories about helping "lost souls" who are stuck between the physical and spiritual world. Interestingly some of the souls Bruce assisted were him self in his past life incarnation. Time and space work differently in spiritual realms and apparently it is possible to become helper to your past self. By helping others Bruce also learned a lot about him self. It made him realize and understand the challenges of his present life.

I it sound like science fiction stories (any LOST fans out there?) but the other authors have similar experiences. It is quite fascinating dont you think?

 
Lagt op : 20/09/2010 21:46
(@Oscar)
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Hi Gadfly

I use techniques described by Edith Fiore and William Baldwin. This is about depossession, a state when the lost soul has joined a person.

Before I started I checked what Martinus had to say about the subject on lost souls and I found that he confirmed both the situation and the problem. I have some material about his writings on this subject but it is in danish.

One of his articles is this one: http://kosmos.martinus.dk/da/kosmos/1968/parser.php?fil=kos1968-20-217&nr=11
Maybe you can find it in english.

Best regards
Oscar

 
Lagt op : 20/09/2010 21:54
(@Anonym)
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Thanks Oscar. I found the article. It is called "Correspondence Between the Physical and the Psychic Plane" and was published in English version of Kosmos no. 3, 1999. I dont think I read it before.

This is all very interesting to me. Thanks again for a good tip.

Best,
Gadfly

 
Lagt op : 20/09/2010 22:23
 Ejby
(@Ejby)
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Hi everybody.

Out of body experiences. To have them or not?

Why don`t all of us naturally have out of body experiences? And is is really so easy to learn?

I am thinking that we may have to consider the memory-body. (danish: Hukommelses legmet) In this time of our evolution our memory-body is not very strong.

Martinus writes about this and how the week memory-body is the reason why we normaly dont remember the OBE we have when we are asleep.

If it not comes naturally - maby it is not ment to be - at this time in evolution.

Some thoughts about this subject - What do you think?

Best regards
Ejby

 
Lagt op : 22/09/2010 17:31
(@larskrog)
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To forgive is to forget so the logic is memory
Becomes latent in close-by evolution

Lars                                                     

 
Lagt op : 22/09/2010 21:53
(@Anonym)
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Hi Ejby

Quote:
Why don`t all of us naturally have out of body experiences? And is is really so easy to learn?

This excatly the questions I have. Here is a summary what Ive found so far.

There are many dedicated books on this subject. Some come from Theosophical and Spiritualist traditions written a century ago. Others are by contemporary writers who dont belong to any particular religious or philosophical movement. Different points of view but often very similar stories. They very much confirm what Martinus writes about after life and spiritual realms.

The first most striking thing for me was to find how many people practice OBE and how easy it is to learn it.

How common is it?
William Buhlman included survey questionnaire as a part of his first book Adventures Beyond the Body (1996) and received first-hand accounts from over 16,000 people from all walks of lives and ages who had various degrees of OBE from accidental to controlled. The result and stories of the people are published in his book The Secret of the Soul. Very interesting to read.

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Soul-Out-Body-Experiences/dp/006251671X/ref=pd_sim_b_1

Is it easy?
Often people think OBE requires a special gift or is something reserved for occult masters from far east. All the authors unanimously agree it is a latent ability common to all humans. Some might be more talented than others but with enough training its possible.

Out of the authors I read Robert Monroe stands out. He founded institute to help people with OBE and also study the subject by methods of contemporary science. The Monroe method is quite interesting. It uses music and sound waves to initiate OBE (mind awake, body asleep). As he explains it it is non invasive method that lets you achieve OBE at your will (unlike drugs). It is very easy to use as self-guided technique (apparently you never alone) or you can take a course guided by physically present instructors. They are based in USA but have curses in Europe regularly.

Video of Robert Monroe story here
http://www.monroeinstitute.org/videos/1-monroes-out-of-body-obe-paranormal-transformation-of-human-consciousness/

Is it safe?
Many authors have worked out similar techniques, do and donts of getting in and out of body and how to control the experience. All report some negative experiences but far form physical or mental health damaging. Negative experiences seams to be avoidable if ones mind is in sound health (free of fear, anxiety, anger etc). Acording to the all of the outhors it is a not dangers activity. The biggest reported problem for beginners is control of OBE. How to orient and move around takes some time as well as learning different ways of communication and perception.

Every author has some kind of theory as to how things work in OBE. They dont always agree with each other and admit their limited knowledge. They often have a lot of practical advice based on years of experience but not much knowledge about the principles of how it all works. That is why Im searching Martinus for more information.

I hope this might be useful to anyone interested in the subject. I listed my favorite author in previous post. If you search their names on Amazon you will find many books.

Best

Gadfly

 
Lagt op : 22/09/2010 23:54
(@larskrog)
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Hi Gadfly

Very interesting I just booked what you
Posted.

Mart in us continued as some eye widnesses
Among his friends reported  so he Must have
found away to do it without harming
His intelligense.

Do you have some ob of your own.

Best regards
Lars

 
Lagt op : 23/09/2010 08:35
(@Anonym)
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Hi Lars,

Yes I had a few brief OBEs of beginner type. The moment I got too exited or fearful I snapped back to the physical. Those who expect to have experience of cosmic unity or speak to beings of light while in OBE will probably be disappointed. Such things can happen but are rather rare even for people with many years of practice. But finding your mind is independent of your body is an experience hard to forget.

If anyone wants to try easiness and effectiveness of the Monroe method (use of sound waves) without having OBE here is a tip.

Similar use of sound can help people to fall in to a deep sleep easily (body asleep, mind asleep, the opposite of OBE). I tried the Catnapper (short nap) technique and it works like magic. One listens to the sounds and falls asleep in minutes. Than naturally wakes up in exactly 30 minutes refreshed and energized. Feels natural with no side effects. It is not invasive. It does not force you to fall asleep. If you go with the flow it makes it easy. If you dont want to, nothing happens.

http://www.amazon.com/Catnapper-Monroe-Products/dp/B00004T8YD/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285231678&sr=8-1

Best

Gadfly

 
Lagt op : 23/09/2010 10:09
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